Interview with Jim Lehrer
The News Hour with Jim Lehrer · March 18, 2002
JIM LEHRER: Now, Mariane Pearl, widow of Daniel Pearl, the "Wall Street Journal" reporter who was kidnapped and then murdered by terrorists in Pakistan. She's now in the United States on her way to Paris for the birth of her first child, a son, in May. Mariane Pearl is a 34-year-old freelance journalist. She and Daniel Pearl were married in 1999. They had been living in Bombay, India, where he was the journal's South Asia bureau chief at the time they went to Karachi, Pakistan, to cover aspects of the war on terrorism. I spoke with Mariane Pearl this morning at her Washington hotel. JIM LEHRER: Mariane Pearl, welcome. MARIANE PEARL: Thank you. JIM LEHRER: As you know, there was another act of terrorism in Pakistan involving some Americans -- somebody threw a grenade in a church -- two Americans, three others killed, forty more wounded. Should this just be seen as another episode in the war about terrorism? MARIANE PEARL: Most likely. I don't have the details of what happened but apparently it is an act committed against foreigners. It's happened right in an area of Islamabad that is called - known as the Islamabad diplomatic enclave - a wellprotected area where all the embassies are, so I don't have the details of the investigation but - yes -- JIM LEHRER: This is part of - this is what it was going to be for a while - do you agree with that - in other words, the death of your husband, the kidnapping and death of your husband, the episode yesterday, this is something we're just going to have to get used to? MARIANE PEARL: My feeling is, yes. I think - my feeling is that the killing of Danny was not an isolated act but part of a longer process with, you know - with different acts of terrorism, which caused to paralyze us, to prevent any kind of cooperation between Pakistan and the other countries - we don't know -- and the West basically. So I don't know if getting used to it is the right -- proper word, but that we're going to have to stand up against it. JIM LEHRER: Have you come to understand why your husband was singled out for kidnapping and killing? MARIANE PEARL: Understand - well, as I said - you know - a lot of people didn't - usually when you kidnap someone, you try to exchange him for somebody else or you try to get a ransom. My feeling is that the killing of Danny was more of a declaration of war basically. If you see the emails that have been sent to us - it's very murky - like, you know, they're not asking something for specific to release Danny but saying this is a warning, this is the beginning of a war against the West, or "America," they call it - so it is not - it's not a killing that makes any sense. JIM LEHRER: Yeah. You don't think he was chosen because of the story he was working on? You think he was chosen just because he was an American and an American journalist? MARIANE PEARL: I think so. It's difficult to say right now because he is an American journalist but also a person writing about those issues - terrorism - like most journalists were doing at the time - it was a big story -- so it's not clear. I don't know yet whether he angered them by the story he was writing because one of the stories he wrote just before getting kidnapped was about how the crackdown on terrorists was maybe not as complete as the government was saying it was, so that might have angered people. But I believe that he was chosen as a symbol of journalists getting into the country and reporting, Americans - the West, you know. JIM LEHRER: Are you satisfied with the progress that's being made by the Pakistani government in finding who's responsible and punishing them? MARIANE PEARL: I'll be satisfied when they have, you know, when everybody is arrested and punished and justice is done only. The Pakistani police, I have to say, have been amazing. They're very resourceful in terms of policing - the investigation - they are very, very good policemen, but they have very little resources. And the truth of the matter is that when they started trying to find Danny - the first day of his kidnapping - the next day of his kidnapping, we had to provide them with a printer to - you know - scan the photos of Danny and provide them with flashlights, and there was like only one car that you had to push you know, for the car to start and it had one light - you know. It was just amazing. So the lack of resources was something scary, very scary- especially when you had to face - techs you say -- people who had means and technology - they were terrorists that are educated and who know how to handle technology. The police in front of them - and I think that's the case -- anything that was going to happen - a handful of very courageous, very capable policemen but had nothing in terms of tools. JIM LEHRER: Well, what can the United States do to help them? I mean, what more could be done? MARIANE PEARL: A lot. JIM LEHRER: A lot. MARIANE PEARL: But I've met with President Bush here in Washington and I've met with Mrs. Rice, Condoleezza Rice and with Mr. Colin Powell and we talked about that because I was really - the first thing that I really wanted to do after leaving not even leaving Pakistan because I also met with President Musharraf - okay - you know - tell the world that these people - the handful of people I was telling you about are fighting the war on behalf of all of us, because this is, you know, I think an international war - international network of terrorists - with nothing. So I did that. JIM LEHRER: When you left Pakistan, did you have the feeling that it was still that way? I mean, they had, as you say, they couldn't find your husband after he was kidnapped, still haven't found his body, and they apparently hadn't even found enough evidence to even hold up a conviction of some kind. Has that not changed? MARIANE PEARL: It's changed a little, but it's a complicated setting, first of all, because of Pakistan, itself. Karachi is a very - it's a huge city of 14 million people - it's a poor city of 12 million -- it's very easy to hide in Karachi, so - it's also you know the nature of the country and its politics complicated. I think President Musharraf has made me a promise - and I hold him to his promise - to find the real people and not to be -- JIM LEHRER: He said that to you directly. MARIANE PEARL: He said that to me directly - and he wrote me a letter that you know - it was a very strong commitment to find the people. But to answer your question, there's also a big obstacle that he faces inside his own country. It's not -- the setting in Pakistan of justice and law enforcement is more complicated than what you would find in the United States in terms of different agencies and Pakistani police, intelligence - I'm not clear the role that played in the kidnapping of Danny. You were mentioning the main suspect. This main suspect stayed for one week with the Pakistani intelligence right in the middle of the investigation - I don't know exactly why. So I've raised those questions with President Musharraf. JIM LEHRER: What did he tell you? MARIANE PEARL: He acknowledged them. I think, you know, he was very sincere in committing, you know, to find Danny, but he also acknowledged that his own political surrounding it is complicated. JIM LEHRER: As you know, the United States has indicted this man, let me make sure I have his name right here - the - Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh - the leading suspect. Is that a good idea, for the United States to indict him in a criminal court as they have done? MARIANE PEARL: Indicting him, you mean like extradite? JIM LEHRER: Yes. Just to charge him first, make an official charge against him. MARIANE PEARL: Oh, yeah, that is crucial. That is very, very crucial. The United States has been great, you know, and they have reacted very fast. It's very important that they actually indict him because it allows, you know, justice to proceed. Also, the main question is that maybe he should be transferred to the United States, and I've raised this question also with President Bush, and there are two aspects to it. Number one, I think, you know, it's important psychologically for Pakistan to do its own justice, you know? And it's going to be - it's going to lead to trouble - we talked about the church - probably everything is related - you know, and it's going to take a lot of courage for them to actually, you know, bring this man to justice, but it's important, because then it's not the United States you know, leading everything and being you know - the gendarmes du monde as we say in French -- like the cop of the world, you know. JIM LEHRER: The cop of the world. MARIANE PEARL: But helping other people bring their own justice; that's what we really need. The other thing is I think Mr. Omar Sheikh knows a lot about all these networks of terrorists, and he would be a valuable witness also. JIM LEHRER: Attorney General Ashcroft, have you talked to him? MARIANE PEARL: Yes, I've talked to him. JIM LEHRER: Well, he said, one of the reasons the United States brought charges against this man was that in case down the line he was freed that the United States would have the power to arrest him and bring him to justice. Do you agree with that as a strategy for doing this? MARIANE PEARL: Yes, absolutely. That's the best thing we could do. You know, I think it's really great because they give the chance to Pakistan to implement justice, you know, and then it becomes a strong country in that sense, right, but if this obstacle, you know, in their obstacles inside the country would lead -and we don't know what's going to happen -- you know, we don't know what kind of resistance Musharraf and his people - will - you know - we don't know - terrorist acts will happen as a result of this indictment - we don't know -- JIM LEHRER: Does the fact that the U.S. crime that this man is charged with carries the death penalty, does that matter to you at all? I mean, that if he were tried in the United States and if he were convicted, he could be sentenced to death, does that matter to you? MARIANE PEARL: The fact that he dies? JIM LEHRER: No. The fact that he could get the death penalty, maybe not in Pakistan, but he could if he were tried here, does that kind of thing matter to you at all? MARIANE PEARL: I think in Pakistan also. JIM LEHRER: In Pakistan as well? MARIANE PEARL: I think in Pakistan also. The fact that he dies - I would certainly not cry over his death because I think this guy is a nuisance for humanity basically. JIM LEHRER: I'm sorry -- a what for humanity? MARIANE PEARL: He's a nuisance for humanity. JIM LEHRER: Nuisance. MARIANE PEARL: Now what I thought, you know, when I was in Pakistan like right after knowing about what happened to Danny, I thought like would I want to see them all dead - probably -- I don't know - but that would not be what I ultimately want - ultimately, I think - the first question you asked me is do we have to get used to that and I think you have to stand up against that, but ultimately, you know, what was happening is I see people standing up against terrorists and not being hijacked by this fear, by, you know, being paralyzed - by actions - more than seeing a few corpses because then there's more. JIM LEHRER: And that is basically your message to the American people who are upset about what happened on September 11, what happened to your husband, that's the message, don't give up? MARIANE PEARL: Yes. You know, because the first thing I wanted to do is sit down with President Musharraf and also met with President Chirac in France -and President Bush and as I've mentioned before because if we don't win against terrorism - it's a law enforcement problem - and communication, dialogue. It is a political question also, but ultimately I think, you know, it's going to be, something new has to happen, like people have to stand up against, you know, those terrorists or ultimately we are the victims. For the first time, they look at this church, I mean this woman who died and the little girl - they targeted -- JIM LEHRER: Excuse me. The woman who worked in the U.S. embassy, in Islamabad, and her daughter who were sitting in a church. MARIANE PEARL: Yes. Exactly. And they died - the grenade -- you know - so ordinary people, that's who they're targeting, so I think ultimately down the line though we cannot do the work of police and you know, of head of states. Ultimately we are the target, so we have to come up with a response. I think the American people have been really courageous and they have been really helpful to me - they're great people - in a way this has to like strengthen our determination - you know, to fight. That's not patriotism. It's something beyond that I think you know - it's something - it takes a lot of courage to be nonviolent you know or to seek dialogue instead of revenge, you know. So I'm trying to come up with this courage myself, but it's not because I'm a saint, you know, or anything like that - it's just because I would like ultimately to win against them - you know. JIM LEHRER: And it can't be done just with guns, you're saying, it can't be just a military? There's more to it than that. MARIANE PEARL: Because ultimately - violence brings more violence - and these people who have killed Danny - they breed violence out of violence -- they use ignorance -- how can you come up and say I killed an innocent man because he was an American and try - and that was the only explanation - and that means -- in Pakistan it's enough to say America is the enemy to justify killing an innocent person - that means - that shows you the level of ignorance. People don't know - don't know what is an American - we have to fight this ignorance, you know. JIM LEHRER: Your husband of course was a journalist and you're a journalist. Were the two of you, did you ever think of journalism as being a dangerous profession, as a place where your life would be in jeopardy by just practicing it? MARIANE PEARL: Yes. Yes, because we moved to Bombay - Bombay is not a dangerous place as such but it's a difficult place to live - so we made a choice. We made a choice - Danny and I had this strong bond because we were very -- very serious about our journalism profession. It's a profession - but we didn't choose a profession -- we didn't choose it for ego purposes but we chose it because we wanted to change the world. That seems like big words; it is big words, you know, it is big words, but in our own way, you know, we took it very seriously - and Danny - I really admired him as a journalist. He's a very ethical person, and you know, when I say changing the world, it means we would put ourselves in uncomfortable positions and situations just because we wanted to see the truth, which stood for Danny an ultimate value in itself, and when he did - when he went to see these guys - terrorists - we've met a lot of them before in Pakistan, and they just came like - simply at them - because we just have this thing what do you have to say and how do you justify your actions and who are you, that's all we did, so in that sense we knew he was - not a cowboy you know - Danny is not a cowboy or Rambo - we didn't go to Afghanistan for instance because I was pregnant - and so - but at the same time I think we took it on us not to be - not to be swayed by like, you know, the threat - we did not want to be afraid. We didn't want to be afraid I think. We were very careful but I was never afraid because Danny disappeared or something like that. JIM LEHRER: Do we journalists do a good job of explaining what our jobs are? I mean, your husband was clearly singled out because he was an American and a symbol of America. Now most journalists would say, wait a minute, we just happen to be Americans, but we're there to cover the news, and do we do that well, do we explain ourselves well? MARIANE PEARL: I think there's a lot of improvement, you know, to do. Journalists in my view are becoming such important people because who else is going to the field and explaining building those bridges between people. Not everybody can go to Pakistan and see it with their own eyes. They have to rely on the press. So it's a lot of power to be a journalist, you know, today, so a lot of power means a lot of responsibility, and I think journalists have to acknowledge that they have power and that they should be the representative of the people and not of - JIM LEHRER: Not of the government though? MARIANE PEARL: Not of the government. Not of an idea - and if they are ideological, then they should say, I'm going to report that with my right wing views or left wing views or whatever but then they should say because opinion is so important and I even think that they have an education mission because people are smart enough to recognize the truth that is in our own information because we're in competition with somebody else or because you have an ego problem, or because this and that, then, you know, it makes me sad because I think you know the consequences are bad or difficult. JIM LEHRER: And the dangers involved are just part of the job, right? MARIANE PEARL: Yeah. What can I say about that? I mean, you know, Danny was in a way - you know, he didn't think people would harm a journalist and I didn't think either because all we do is have the courage to you know go and try to reflect views, so I think - we've crossed - the expression it is a step that has been crossed, a river that has been crossed - like something that you didn't think would happen, that they wouldn't harm somebody which has come to them - but they did, so the safety issue, it's a delicate one. I certainly don't want anybody to get harmed again, that's also what they want - to scare us enough so that we don't go to them - JIM LEHRER: Do you plan to return to journalism yourself? MARIANE PEARL: To Pakistan. JIM LEHRER: Not to Pakistan. MARIANE PEARL: Pakistan I will. JIM LEHRER: You will go back to Pakistan? MARIANE PEARL: Yes, of course, yes, I will. JIM LEHRER: Why? Why would you go back? MARIANE PEARL: I'd go back because the same way I didn't leave right away Pakistan after I learned about Danny's death, the same way I would not be afraid to return and Pakistan has invited me as a long friend of the country and has given me a long-term visa to go back because I'm not afraid. I mean, I would not say I would never go back to this country, it's evil; it would be exactly what these people want, and I want, you know - JIM LEHRER: The baby's due in May. MARIANE PEARL: Yes. JIM LEHRER: Where's the baby going to be born? MARIANE PEARL: In Paris. JIM LEHRER: In Paris. MARIANE PEARL: Yes. JIM LEHRER: And then you will eventually go from there back to Pakistan, you believe? MARIANE PEARL: Well, it depends on the course of events. But I don't really know actually where I'm going to be -- JIM LEHRER: Sure. But you see yourself as a journalist, you are a journalist? MARIANE PEARL: Yes. JIM LEHRER: And you will always practice journalism? MARIANE PEARL: Yes. JIM LEHRER: And the death of your husband doesn't change anything as far as that is concerned? MARIANE PEARL: As far as that is concerned, it's going to give me more strength and more determination to do my job. JIM LEHRER: My condolences to you. Thank you very much and good luck to you. MARIANE PEARL: Thanks a lot.
